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Get trained in a hurryPosted by Wim Baarschers on December 15, 1997 at 17:19:00: I have followed most postings concerning the
Phipps issue. I am disappointed and concerned. I am concerned about the qualifications of the clergy. In a guest editorial on Nov.25 (United-on Line) Matthew Penney wrote: "The United church does it's people and employees a great disservice by allowing them to be hauled apart by the media. Each of the United Church clergy in St.Thomas got a call from the local press for reaction to the story of Mr. Phipps. Each had a somewhat different response. Each was uncomfortable with the result. WE ARE NOT TRAINED FOR THAT VERY HARD WORLD OUT THERE (my emphasis). After 1988 there was an attempt to do some media training in the Conferences. But perhaps Bill Phipps missed that course." Well, there we have it folks. Ladies and gentlemen
clergy, you are not trained for that very hard world out here. I say
"here" because it is in this hard, cold, cruel world where the rest of
us live. It is here where some real struggles with Faith and Christian
Living are going on. And if you don't get "trained" for this real world
out here in a hurry, God help the church.
In Reply to: GET TRAINED IN A HURRY posted by Wim Baarschers on December 15, 1997 at 17:19:00: : I have followed most postings concerning the
Phipps issue. I am dissapointed and concerned. I agree. I am not trained clergy. I am just a
United Church member in Prince George BC. I find the statements by our
moderator inflamatory and completly unnecessary. I am condemned to doing
"damage control" in my community among christians from other
denominations. I will tire at some point. I think people in leadership
should take a look around and see the needs of the grassroots. If they
can't see it - then find someone who does. From the view where I sit,
the rank and file have chosen to ignore the moderator and the younger
families are voting with their feet. Good luck on setting things right.
In Reply to: Re: GET TRAINED IN A HURRY posted by
Jay Bigland on I would not ever use the word 'just' before United Church member. I do not live in your community nor do i share
your perceptions. However, when The people who choose to misunderstand what Bill
Phipps has said, or who We, as 'grass roots' can discern the needs locally
and offer ourselves to help
Posted by Jim Love on December 16, 1997 at 11:11:45: In Reply to: GET TRAINED IN A HURRY posted by Wim Baarschers on December 15, 1997 at 17:19:00: > Well, there we have it folks. Ladies and gentlemen clergy, you are not trained for that very hard world out here. I say "here" because it is in this hard, cold, cruel world where the rest of us live. It is here where some real struggles with Faith and Christian Living are going on. And if you don't get "trained" for this real world out here in a hurry, God help the church. First question: Are you trolling? (Def. Trolling - intentionally contributing to a discussion for the purpose of causing dis-ease or upset, in order to satisfy a personal need to cause harm. Or in lay terms ... getting your jollies at another's expense ... in this case the clergy who have been contributing here). If you are trolling then shame on you. If not then I am sorry for raising the question. I have been on the internet long enough to know that such folks exist. Second Question: Do you think your experience here or other places is enough information for you to make a judgment on all clergy? I don't think so. If you think so, please explain how you are able to know this. Third Question: What is your real concern? That the theology that is being preached does not adequately deal with the problem of evil and suffering in the world? Is that the issue here? If you are not satisfied with your clergy, perhaps you should do some reading yourself. With your experience of the world you will have a lot of experience that will help you reflect upon the theology you read. I could suggest some theologians who know about the real world. I can think of about 4 who spent time in war camps and one who died in one. Perhaps these folks would speak a theology that is more meaningful to you. Email me if you are interested in a reading list.
In Reply to: What is the real issue here? posted by Jim Love on December 16, 1997 at 11:11:45: Jim Love wrote (Dec.16): First question: Are you
trolling? Second Question: Do you think your experience here
or other places is enough information for you to make a judgment on all
clergy? Third Question: What is your real concern? "If you are not satisfied with your clergy, perhaps you should...." I did not say I was dissatisfied with "my clergy" I believe it was Matthew Penney who made that suggestion. Mike Jones (Dec 15) suggested that: "I would suggest that anyone slinging mud at the clergy reconsider these kinds of generalizations." I have trouble seeing the generalization of your editorialist as "mudslinging." Sorry to see some of the participants in this
discussion take offense. Perhaps I don't speak the language, so this
will have to be the end of my brief participation in this debate.
In Reply to: Re: What is the real issue here? posted by Wim Baarschers on December 16, 1997 at 13:10:17: : Well, there we have it folks. Ladies and
gentlemen clergy, you are not trained for that very hard world out here.
I say "here" because it is in this hard, cold, cruel world where the
rest of us live. : Jim Love wrote (Dec.16): First question: Are you trolling? Answer: No : Second Question: Do you think your experience here or other places is enough information for you to make a judgment on all clergy? Answer: I did not make a judgement on all clergy. I quoted an editorial. : Third Question: What is your real concern?
Answer: My real concern is that the political fall-out about what Phipps
said or not said or should have said is not important enough to spend so
much time on. I believe there are more important issues to deal with.
That is, of course, my opinion. Feel free to agree or disagree. : Mike Jones (Dec 15) suggested that: "I would suggest that anyone slinging mud at the clergy reconsider these kinds of generalizations." I have trouble seeing the generalization of your editorialist as "mudslinging." : Sorry to see some of the participants in this discussion take offense. Perhaps I don't speak the language, so this will have to be the end of my brief participation in this debate. AS a clergy I am on your side Wim Baarschers, this whole issue has been blown out of the sky by some who have not kept up with new scholarship... we should never be afraid to speak in any public debate when we are knowlegable, if we donot know something thna remain silent.
In Reply to: Re: What is the real issue here? posted by George Hermanson on December 16, 1997 at 17:39:27: Well, I don't know what the real issue is - unless it is the tone we take with one another. But we are adults here and so we can reckon with the medium and express ourselves. For me the issue is indeed deciding on what scholarship to follow. I have a bit of an academic background - and leanings - and have found that our pre-existing faith and experience determines what kind of scholars we are going to listen to. Indeed, as Dr. James Eayrs, once said "most people come to university to have their biases confirmed and leave that way". As he spoke to us he didn't differentuate between biases. Something to mull over. -- Richard
In Reply to: Re: What is the real issue here? posted by George Hermanson on December 16, 1997 at 17:39:27: : AS a clergy I am on your side Wim Baarschers, this whole issue has been blown out of the sky by some who have not kept up with new scholarship... we should never be afraid to speak in any public debate when we are knowlegable, if we donot know something thna remain silent. If we don't know something then keep quiet? Everybody has a point of view and we learn more by speaking our minds. Others will reply and we can then decided whether to modify our opinions or not. As far as keeping up with current scholarship goes... Give me a break! There is a world full of scholars out there who disagree with each other. Whats current is not necessarily true or right.. its just current. Its deciding what scholarship to believe. If you think that the scholarship you follow is the only scholarship out there - well your limiting your reading. I don't think there are easy answers here. You can't just say keep up with the scholarship and you'll find the truth.
In Reply to: Re: What is the real issue here? posted by George Hermanson on December 16, 1997 at 17:39:27: : AS a clergy I am on your side Wim Baarschers, this whole issue has been blown out of the sky by some who have not kept up with new scholarship... we should never be afraid to speak in any public debate when we are knowlegable, if we donot know something than remain silent. What do you mean by recent scholarship ... the
Jesus Seminar stuff? I wouldn't consider that stuff recent. I've read
that theology and find it quite weak. I have real concerns about Bill
Phipp's weak theological expressions. I also have real concern about
Jesus Seminar theology. My concerns come from a post-liberal/postmodern
Orthodox perspective (Frei, Linbeck, Oden). Posted by George Hermanson on December 17, 1997 at 18:02:35: In Reply to: Re: What is the real issue here?
posted by Jim Love on December : : AS a clergy I am on your side Wim Baarschers,
this whole issue has been : What do you mean by recent scholarship ... the
Jesus Seminar stuff? I wouldn't Jim; If you were to sumbit your list as coherent
group I would say you do not
In Reply to: Re: What is the real issue here?
posted by George Hermanson on : Jim; If you were to sumbit your list as coherent
group I would say you do not Funny thing that the 1996 "New Handbook of
Christian Theologians" lists Frei,
In Reply to: Re: What is the real issue here?
posted by Jim Love on December : : Jim; If you were to sumbit your list as
coherent group I would say you do not : Funny thing that the 1996 "New Handbook of
Christian Theologians" listsrei, The Yale school, which includes Frier and Lindbeck
were given the name post
In Reply to: GET TRAINED IN A HURRY posted by Wim
Baarschers on : Well, there we have it folks. Ladies and
:gentlemen clergy, you are not trained Those words of the guest editorialist are best
left for him to explain. But as for :It is here where some real struggles with Faith
:and Christian Living are going on. And if you don't get "trained" for
this real world out here in a hurry, God help There was a time when all ministers had to deal
with were struggles of faith and Now ministers are expected to be competant in
civil law, criminal law,
In Reply to: GET TRAINED IN A HURRY posted by Wim
Baarschers on : Well, there we have it folks. Ladies and
gentlemen clergy, you are not trained Wim, it takes about five years after ordinatuion
to discover that what you were In my own case, three units of CPE equipped me well for the ministry of pastoral care and for preaching. Others engage in post-graduate studies. One colleague "reinvents" himself every five or
six years and recovenants with Don't despair. Some of us do "get it".
In Reply to: GET TRAINED IN A HURRY posted by Wim
Baarschers on : I am disappointed that this entire debate is
carried on by a small group of clergy. Maybe there are only a few
ministers that have the time to sit long evenings at a : I am concerned about the qualifications of the
clergy. In a guest editorial on I would suggest that anyone slinging mud at the
clergy reconsider these kinds of As for the comment concerning "long evenings at
the keyboard", I can only
In Reply to: GET TRAINED IN A HURRY posted by Wim
Baarschers on If one follows the 'training/instruction' courses
that Jesus gave the disciples, they were done in the midst of his
congregation most times. Remember the disciples being sent out 'two by
two'. With each other for company, encouragement and I would hazard a guess that most of our clergy wouldn't know what or how to do the simple ministry of the disciples' training - heal the sick, cast out demons (for that you have to believe there are such things!) and preach 'the good news' - that would be understanding what 'sin' was and receiving forgiveness (I would suggest) to the poor - the down-and-out (they know they have a need) and the up-and-out (they are a little harder to be convinced that there is any such thing as 'sin' or deeds that need to be confessed. My husband's training 'on the Prairies with 5 churches' was definitely a way to 'get trained in a hurry'. Now it seems it is necessary to learn 'what to say and what NOT to say' in public, or one could get ones head and reputation caught in a noose. Speaking from the heart about a personal, spiritual experience can even create havoc on this page. My responses (all from clergy so far) have been anything but spiritual - lots of 'maybe it didn't happen that way' or 'where you there when it happened?' or 'Did you actually hear that person speak, How can you criticize if you didn't actually hear! No we weren't THERE in Jesus' day, we didn't hear his words of wisdom, but we do know that the message of the New Testament has God's approval or the message would have been lost years ago - a trend that would have come and gone with the whims of humanity. But it didn't!!!! The message spoken now, 1997 is the same basic message that was spoken then and translated many years later in English. Acknowledging Jesus as Lord is still a requirement of the Christian's experience. To acknowledge Him as anything less, is heresy according to my Random House Dictionary. Yes! If our 'clergy' and 'out-spoken' lay folk don't have guidance, we could find ourselves in a heresy debate. The United Church of Canada really needs that kind of advertisement right now!!!! : I have followed most postings concerning the
Phipps issue. I am dissapointed Perhaps the latter is understandable. I have little desire to participate myself, since most of the discussion appears to be "theology in pulpitese." However, one important point must be made. : I am concerned about the qualifications of the
clergy. In a guest editorial on : Well, there we have it folks. Ladies and
gentlemen clergy, you are not trained
In Reply to: Re: GET TRAINED IN A HURRY posted by
A.C.Barnes on : But the United Church sends their ordinands 'just about where they want to go! - none of this 'experiencing the dust of Sask.' Hello A.C., As a student preparing for ordination within the
United Church of Canada I have First, the United Church of Canada does not send
ordinands just about anywhere More frequently the candidate for ministry is not
a youth fresh out of an I am married and I have three children under five.
My wife is also a full-time The majority of ordinands, I suspect, are not
looking to settle in Toronto, Regarding the going out in two's, my wife and I
are leading a movement among Just for your information I have been looking
really hard at settleing in
In Reply to: Re: GET TRAINED IN A HURRY posted by
A. C. Barnes on The following is simply a challenge to Audrey's
laying of guilt on pastor's wives... : I guess I am not very sympathetic for women who
have 3 little ones under five, Hmmm, Audrey...now let me get this right... you
are not sympathetic for women : We have great concern for the families of pastoral workers, who are drawn in different directions 'due to the wife desiring to have a career'. Hmmm, again I take it that you are laying blame on
the wife for desiring to have : I did not do this until my children were OVER four years old. I am so glad that you were able to enjoy your
children's early years. that must : We felt we had responsible 'baby-sitters', but are now being reminded just how inadequate was our preparation. I would agree, it is difficult to find "babysitter". II : Little ones can grow up in other parts of Canada quite well, but they have a much greater problem, growing up without their Mom 'at home'!!! We could have a major discussion on the importance
of being at home with One major point...I would have less of a problem
with your statement if you had : I have lived to regret leaving the children for my opportunity to 'work' away from home. Not sure why you put "work" in quotes here.. : These many years later, we are often reminded by our 'now adult children, ages 25, 27, 32 and 37, of things that took place when I was away from our home, pursuing a career. Hmmm. sounds like your children are good at laying
on the guilt... it is possible I am confused here...sorry Audrey, I thought you
stayed at home with your : Much counsel, and much wisdom should be used when we, as mothers, decide that a career is more important then our childrens' early childhood training... HMMMMM (notice the caps)... we, as mothers...not
we, as parents...does this Anyways, I think you catch my disagreements...I
will let other people agree/disagree with your statements on
settlements.
In Reply to: Re: GET TRAINED IN A HURRY posted by
Jayne Little on A career is "more important"...possibly
differently important... we could have fun : Anyways, I think you catch my disagreements...I
will let other people Audrey: I have only one comment to make, I
sincerly doubt that anyone would really believe a paid babysitter will
love and nuture a child as much as it's mother.. Much Joy in your ministry, yours is a difficult
path.
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